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Gax
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Hi!
When doing any low-level flying, I often find myself wondering what my height is, though am keenly aware of the potential error in GPS altitude and therefore am reluctant to trust the 'Height' readout at the top of the screen. To account for this, I find myself flicking between Altitude and Height at the top of the screen, subtracting the difference in my head, and then comparing that to my (theoretically more accurate) pressure altimeter.
Would it be possible to simply add a third option to that box for 'Elevation' that shows the terrain elevation for the current GPS position? Presumably you're fetching it anyway to calculate height... If it's not in demand, maybe an option to enable/disable the feature?
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guille
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Group: Forum Members
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+xIt would be a step in the right direction, but why is there so much resistance to making an existing instrument which toggles Alt/Hgt into a three-way Alt/Hgt/Elev instrument? The data obviously exists within the application, and since I suspect most users never move away from Alt anyway, the only people who will be affected are those who might want to use the extra information, with no need for extra config options or menu items to confuse people. The principal issue is when you fly at low altitude: example, there are many military corridors between 800 ft and 5 or 6000 feet. I can fly then between 500ft and 800ft. A lot of precision is then necessary. Even with a WAAS-EGNOSS device, it would be useful to know the elevation while flying.
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T67M
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+x+xIt would be a step in the right direction, but why is there so much resistance to making an existing instrument which toggles Alt/Hgt into a three-way Alt/Hgt/Elev instrument? The data obviously exists within the application, and since I suspect most users never move away from Alt anyway, the only people who will be affected are those who might want to use the extra information, with no need for extra config options or menu items to confuse people. The principal issue is when you fly at low altitude: example, there are many military corridors between 800 ft and 5 or 6000 feet. I can fly then between 500ft and 800ft. A lot of precision is then necessary. Even with a WAAS-EGNOSS device, it would be useful to know the elevation while flying. I know! I'm agreeing with you! I want to know why the is so much resistance to making a change to SkyDemon that a number of customers seem to think would be useful!
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ckurz7000
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Are you saying you look at your altimeter when flying 500 ft AGL? I am looking outside all the time at that altitude. No altimeter required and hence no elevation information.
-- Chris.
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guille
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Group: Forum Members
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+xAre you saying you look at your altimeter when flying 500 ft AGL? I am looking outside all the time at that altitude. No altimeter required and hence no elevation information. -- Chris. Sorry, but flying slowly with a Gyro, you can look at the altimeter and the tablet... and of course look outside. But I always fly (since already many years) between 500 and 1000 feet AGL. And at 500 ft you can easily move to 700 ft or 300 ft without realizing it if not looking at the altimeter...
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Gax
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Why would you stop glancing at your flight instruments at 500'??? How would you even know you're at 500' unless you've looked at an instrument? Not everybody just flies A-to-B at 3000'+, and those of us who do fly at heights under 1000' are completely capable of glancing down for 1 second to read the panel without suddenly rocketing into the ground at 1500'/min (which would still require 20 seconds of descent)
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ckurz7000
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Group: Forum Members
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+xWhy would you stop glancing at your flight instruments at 500'??? How would you even know you're at 500' unless you've looked at an instrument? Not everybody just flies A-to-B at 3000'+, and those of us who do fly at heights under 1000' are completely capable of glancing down for 1 second to read the panel without suddenly rocketing into the ground at 1500'/min (which would still require 20 seconds of descent) BTW, I also fly a gyro and I regularly fly on the lower end of the spectrum. The reason I question the usefulness of knowing elevation figures are these: 1) At low altitudes there are increasingly more obstacles. They are sometimes not on SD, and therefore I keep a more vigilant look out when flying low. 2) Glancing at the altimeter is fine but what I am interested, really, is not dropping below the minimum allowed altitude. Knowing elevation is not going to help me doing this. Altitude above ground level will, however. And this is already provided by SD. 3) Flying at 500 feet, I can easily detect altitude excursions because 100 feet is 20% of my altitude. Whereas at 5000 feet it is only 2%. 4) Altitudes from GPS and a digital elevation model are notoriously inaccurate. Greetings, -- Chris.
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Gax
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1) any obstacle high enough to be a conflict at 500' will be in SD. I forget the specific max height for marking an obstacle on a chart, but it's well below 500'. Even so, a 'more vigilant look' doesn't men you can't still glance at instruments.
2 and 4) These two points contradict themselves - You say SD already provides height, but then say GPS altitude is inaccurate. I agree with 4 but disagree that knowing elevation is not useful as you can then crosscheck against the theoretically more accurate pressure altimeter.
3) Excursions aren't always noticeable if they're gradual, and not everybody is as good at visually picking out heights. Also, the 500' height isn't the only usecase - Another is flying IMC due to unforeseen weather and trying to maintain an MSA of 1000' under low class A airspace (e.g. the Sevenoaks area), in which case you won't be able to see such excursions.
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ckurz7000
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+x1) any obstacle high enough to be a conflict at 500' will be in SD. I forget the specific max height for marking an obstacle on a chart, but it's well below 500'. Even so, a 'more vigilant look' doesn't men you can't still glance at instruments. 2 and 4) These two points contradict themselves - You say SD already provides height, but then say GPS altitude is inaccurate. I agree with 4 but disagree that knowing elevation is not useful as you can then crosscheck against the theoretically more accurate pressure altimeter. 3) Excursions aren't always noticeable if they're gradual, and not everybody is as good at visually picking out heights. Also, the 500' height isn't the only usecase - Another is flying IMC due to unforeseen weather and trying to maintain an MSA of 1000' under low class A airspace (e.g. the Sevenoaks area), in which case you won't be able to see such excursions. 1) Not all the obstacles are on the chart (they get erected between issue dates and sometimes not even reported). And most people don't read the corresponding NOTAM and mark them on their charts. 2) Yes, SD does provide height and therefore gives me what I need when I want to check my AGL. And yes, it is inaccurate and fraught with GPS and elevation model errors. I care MUCH more about altitude AGL than the actual elevation of a specific point. The only time I do care about elevation is during flight planning, though. 3) Flying at 500' AGL you will definitely notice an excursion by 20% in altitude just by "the size of the houses". 4) Flying IMC without a flightplan and SD as your gude for terrain clearance is a sure setup for desaster. Greetings, -- Chris.
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guille
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x[quote]1) any obstacle high enough to be a conflict at 500' will be in SD. I forget the specific max height for marking an obstacle on a chart, but it's well below 500'. Even so, a 'more vigilant look' doesn't men you can't still glance at instruments. 2 and 4) These two points contradict themselves - You say SD already provides height, but then say GPS altitude is inaccurate. I agree with 4 but disagree that knowing elevation is not useful as you can then crosscheck against the theoretically more accurate pressure altimeter. 3) Excursions aren't always noticeable if they're gradual, and not everybody is as good at visually picking out heights. Also, the 500' height isn't the only usecase - Another is flying IMC due to unforeseen weather and trying to maintain an MSA of 1000' under low class A airspace (e.g. the Sevenoaks area), in which case you won't be able to see such excursions. 1) Not all the obstacles are on the chart (they get erected between issue dates and sometimes not even reported). And most people don't read the corresponding NOTAM and mark them on their charts. 2) Yes, SD does provide height and therefore gives me what I need when I want to check my AGL. And yes, it is inaccurate and fraught with GPS and elevation model errors. I care MUCH more about altitude AGL than the actual elevation of a specific point. The only time I do care about elevation is during flight planning, though. 3) Flying at 500' AGL you will definitely notice an excursion by 20% in altitude just by "the size of the houses". 4) Flying IMC without a flightplan and SD as your gude for terrain clearance is a sure setup for desaster. Greetings, -- Chris. --------------------------- It is not only a problem of obstacles, flying VFR and without obstacles, it would be good to have height errors of less than 100 ft to avoid military corridors safely (when you see a Rafale it can be too late, it is not the same as a windmill) and that is the reason why I think having elevation in the button of altitude/height can be a good thing. Obstacles I can always see. But I don't believe we will change our opinions, so I will stop writing about this issue.
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Gax
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1) Feel free to show me a 400' obstacle thats but notamed next time you see one.
2) We agree on the altitude point, except that only tells you AMSL. Without elevation you have nothing to reference it to in order to establish AGL.
3) I disagree that every pilot is as adept at identifying heights. You cannot speak for everybody in this regard.
4) "Flying IMC without a flightplan and SD as your gude for terrain clearance is a sure setup for desaster." Clearly you didn't read the part where I said "unforeseen weather". i.e. Making a safety call to climb into IFR enroute rather than landcon a golf course or scud-run it at 300'. SD is a guide to situational awareness, and highlights problems that you may have missed or need reassurance on. You don't use it as primary nav, and you check your MSA, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with glancing up to SD to double-check that you are indeed at sufficient height when flying under the LTMA (which you aren't allowed into) and that you haven't missed something or screwed up the math.
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plume_tray
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Clearly those who like the idea will find it very useful. As a helicopter pilot, I will find a use for it.
What I don't understand is why there are people arguing against it, when it will likely not impact them. Are we still talking about a ALT / HGT / ELE toggle? If you don't care for it, no one is gonna force you to use it.
It's like GAFOR, very useful for some, but I dont use it in my location, so does not currently benefit me. However due to the design, it doesn't bother me having the feature still.
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ckurz7000
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Group: Forum Members
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+xClearly those who like the idea will find it very useful. As a helicopter pilot, I will find a use for it. What I don't understand is why there are people arguing against it, when it will likely not impact them. Are we still talking about a ALT / HGT / ELE toggle? If you don't care for it, no one is gonna force you to use it.It's like GAFOR, very useful for some, but I dont use it in my location, so does not currently benefit me. However due to the design, it doesn't bother me having the feature still. When you maintain a piece of software you have to be careful what features to include and which ones to forego. Of course, you can make every feature optional, user selectable, individually configurable, etc. But in the end you wind up with a piece of code that is (a) difficult to maintain, (b) difficult to set up and (c) confusing to operate. Tim does a great job at walking this tight line, and he seems to have a good grasp of GUI basics and intuitive interaction. Greetings, -- Chris.
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plume_tray
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Group: Forum Members
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You will probably find that helicopter pilots will find this more useful than fixed wing pilots, due to the fact that helicopters tend to fly lower, slower, and land off-airfield where elevation isnt so readily available compared to airfields where elevation is published in the AIP / Pooleys etc.
Helicopter Performance Class 1 calculation is one area to benefit from this. Situational awareness while flying can be improved too. As a pilot, I'd like to have the information to hand, and make my own decisions how I'm going to use it. If it's not there, that just reduces my decision making ability.
As we all know there are less helicopter vs fixed wing pilots so our voice tends to get drowned out by the majority fixed wingers, both in software and in regulation.
As a developer myself, I understand the balance between bloated software and simple UI. This addition leans more toward simple than bloated.
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guille
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Group: Forum Members
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+xYou will probably find that helicopter pilots will find this more useful than fixed wing pilots, due to the fact that helicopters tend to fly lower, slower, and land off-airfield where elevation isnt so readily available compared to airfields where elevation is published in the AIP / Pooleys etc. Helicopter Performance Class 1 calculation is one area to benefit from this. Situational awareness while flying can be improved too. As a pilot, I'd like to have the information to hand, and make my own decisions how I'm going to use it. If it's not there, that just reduces my decision making ability. As we all know there are less helicopter vs fixed wing pilots so our voice tends to get drowned out by the majority fixed wingers, both in software and in regulation.As a developer myself, I understand the balance between bloated software and simple UI. This addition leans more toward simple than bloated. You can add gyro pilots ...
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ckurz7000
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Well, I am a gyro oilot, too. And I don't need this functionality.
-- Chris.
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